Curley Origin Speculation - As of Oct. 2021
As we come into the tail end of 2021, there hasn't
been much new information to change any thoughts on the point of origin for
our Curley lineage historically found in Central Ireland, in the counties of
Galway, Mayo, Roscommon and Westmeath. There have not been any new YDNA
matches with the Curley surname in quite some time, mainly because the
Curley males do not seem to be active in YDNA testing. Regardless, current
speculation would suggest these as a possible origin.
1. Descended from the Norman (of Viking origin) de Curly/de Curleio family. There is quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that may support this as an origin although there is no solid evidence existing at this time. In support of this hypothesis, to date there have been no other surnames within the past 1000 years that share the Curley YDNA signature. I suspect the Curley surname usage goes back to at least 1100 AD in Normandy as Curly or the Latinized de Curleio. The other ydna matches we have are very distant, and have a slightly different YDNA signature, these would include the Tilley and Glenville matches, along with a number of other English and Irish surnames. This overall surnanme diversity could be explained by the Curley progenitor arriving in Ireland with the Strongbow Invasion, that is a very long time for the various one off Irish surname matches to have formed. The handful of English surname matches we have appear to have come from a more recent Irish immigrant, possibly arriving in England around 1400AD, at least this seems like a plausible scenario based upon the relative closeness of the relationship level found in all of the English surnames. For the most part the Irish surnames seem to be more distantly related. Regardless, the Curley lineage still remains unique among all the matches, it is the only surname that has a unique siganture appart from all othe other matches to the overall group.
2.Descended from a Viking living on or around Lough Ree during the time of Turgesius. Additional information regarding Turgesius and the Vikings on Lough Ree can be found in the Links section of this site. Nearly all of our Irish surname matches appear to have history in this general area and there is a large number of different surnames in the group.
3.Native Irish Gaelic origin - We continue to pick up new Irish surnames matching the lineage that were not previously known and the overwhelming majority have a history in the same general area. There is also a great deal of genetic distance between these various Irish surnames which would seem to indicate a very long presence in the area.
As a reminder, the Y-DNA SNP named L1066 or CTS1202 was found in ancient Viking remains on the island of Oland, off the coast of Sweden. This SNP was also found in ancient Scottish remains dated to approximately 1400 BCE, located in Longniddry Scotland. The SNP L1066 or CTS1202 is an SNP found in our Curley family, meaning all males having this SNP are paternally related. Of course the L1066 Viking remains were much more recent than the Scottish remains, the L1066 Viking remains from Oland were dated to approximately 829 AD/CE.
GENERAL UPDATES
06/24/2023
We had a new discovery a few weeks back, we picked up a match to
the lineage that was not expected, someone having YCAII 22-22 instead of the
typical YCAII 22-23. We verified the matching using specific SNP
testing and the result was a match. This opens things up a bit, that there
are potentially other matches out there with 22-22. In addition, we recently
picked up a couple more surname matches to our lineage, Irish surnames that
were not previously known to match the group. I've exhausted researching the
new surnames and their historical information and about all we can add is
that it supports our long standing presence in Central Ireland. I believe we
are now around 12 -15 unique Irish surnames that are part of our lineage,
going back to the common shared ancestor existing around 300 AD/CE.The
majority of these surnames have history in the ancient territory of Connacht
and the Ui' Maine. Next to Curley, the surname with what appears to be the
longest history is Ryan or Royan, possibly the historical
O'Ruadhin/O'Rudhain sept found within Ui' Maine.
02/19/2023
I found some time and put in a little effort to see if I could find
information on another Curley lineage from the Galway area that is not
paternally related to our original Curley lineage and found some interesting
information. This other Curley lineage has strong representation in central
Ireland however it has a totally different point of origin, we are not
linked in any way other than sharing the same name, however one did not descend from the
other by acquiring the surname from the same root, although it's possible
this other group adopted it from our lineage. I don't understand why
other researchers can't comprehend this so I'll put out there very plainly
since the DNA evidence now paints a very clear picture. The Curley lineage
under the snp BY198 descends from the Egan sept, in Irish the MacAodhagain
family. In fact, the dna evidence clearly shows how this lineage split and
broke into branches exactly at the time it is reported for the founder,
approximately 600AD. The DNA evidence shows two branches of the Egan/Keegan family
descending from BY198 where you have an Egan/Keegan branch under BY11726 and a
Keegan branch under BY113092, you can clearly see the split at the founder,
again going back to approximately 550 - 600 AD. In summary, the other large
Curley lineage researchers would do well to spend some time seeing how this
unrelated Curley lineage ties into the Egan/Keegan famly, who has been in
that Central Ireland area since at least the 5th Century. I don't often take
time to do other researchers work, but when I continue to see ridiculous
information being posted online about a made up origin with evidence that
makes no sense to anyone who understands DNA, I felt it was time to clear
that all up.What I've just done now with this other Curley family is exactly
what I want to be able to to with our Curley lineage, trace it back to a
known founder but there isn't nearly enough information yet to do that,
although I do have a hunch. Now if other researchers would just put their
minds to figuring out how the other Curley lineage descended from the Egans,
that would be some worthwhile information so they should get at it and stop
the made up information, let's stick to some facts. It does make for some
fun fiction though, which Irish history is full of. My position is 100%
supported by actual testing results, which can be verified by reviewing the
public Big Tree
here.You can plainly see Keegan and Egan (they have the same origin) on
one side of the tree and Keegan on the other, with the founder right there
at the top around 550 - 600 AD and Curley right in the middle. You can also
see this other non-related Curley family has a closer connection to the Dunn
surname, but that still goes back several hundred years. The researchers
should focus on how Egan/Keegan, Dunn/Dunne and Raigin connect and where
this Curley family fits in, being most recently related to the Dunn family.
It appears this other Curley lineage split from the Dunn lineage around 750
AD and this would have been in the territory of Ui Maine or the southern Ui
Neill. I wish our Curley lineage was this easy to trace but so far, it's still a
challenge. If new testing results add additional useful information or
change the picture for what I am seeing now I will most certainly update or
correct accordingly. What I've seen with some other Curley research is
individuals came up with a hypothesis very early on that is not supported by
any actual information and as time went by ignored new DNA evidence, cherry
picked results that could be mixed in to try and support a proposal and came
up with non-sensical connections that are not suuported by testing results.
Cherry picking results is very common in the DNA community especially when
someone has an agenda and tries to support their ideas. Reality is, this is
all a big puzzle and we are handed various pieces along the way and the big
picture is still not visible however we must continue to expand our thinking
and put aside preconveived notions and admit when we are wrong about an
original proposal. In summary, the other main Curley lineage from the
Galway/Roscommon area that is not paternally related to our Curley lineage
did not come from Oriel, unless they first migrated from Ui Maine territory
to Oriel, only to come back down to Galway because their ancestor
Egan/Keegan relatives were in the Ui Maine territory (Connacht) for a very
long time and it is from this Egan/Keegan family these Curleys descend, the
actual DNA evidence makes this crystal clear. They have been in that same
area for a very long time and most likely originating from a different
surname, not the Curley surname in use today or any made up variant of a
Gaelic interpretation.
02/18/2023
Currently, there are 5 sets of ancient remains discovered and
published that match our L1066 lineage, for more information please see the
Ancient Origins tab. As more remains are found that match our lineage they
will be added with some personal thoughts on what the match might mean as it
relates to understanding our more distant origin. I believe we can
conclusively say our Curley family has been in Ireland since at least the
Strongbow Invasion of Ireland, occuring around 1169 AD/CE. We can conclude
branches of the family have been in the British Isles since at least 1400
BC, as verified the discovery of the Longniddry Scotland remains. We must
keep in mind the large number of descendants from this lineage during that
time period, there appear to be at least 19 branches (male descendants)
coming from L1066 within a fairly short period of time, perhaps just one
generaion or two.The Longniddry Scotland remains had approximately 400 years
separation from the original L1066 founder so we cannot assume L1066 was
founded in Scotland. I suspect we had L1066 descendants in Scotland and
other parts of the British Isles/Ireland and other descendants back on the
European Continent. Denmark is a straight line across from Longniddry
Scotland and I believe there was quite a bit of travel and trading going on
during this period.
11/13/2022
Added a new page for ancient remains discovered and confirmed to
match our lineage. We are up to 4 sets of remains, each one confirmed
positive for the SNP L1066. Also, there is someone that has tested and is
confirmed positive for the SNP A6127, and SNP still very ancient but
below/younger than L1066. Thus far I've not been able to establish contact
with this A6127* person, it would be nice to know what surname it is and
what country they have connections to.
7/03/2022
FTDNA has released a new YDNA utility
here, this provides some useful information on testing results and has a
section for connections to ancient remains that have been tested. Of
interest, they are reporting that
Neil
Armstrong, the first man to walk on the moon, is positive for the snp
L1066, which means we share the same male ancestor from approximately 3000
years ago.
6/18/2022
It appears there was another set of ancient remains discovered some
time back in Scotland that also tested positive for the L1066 SNP carried by
our Curley lineage. This more recent discovery is from West Lothian,
Scotland, House of Binns. The date for the remains is estimated to be
between 43 BCE to 117 CE . Since the L1066 SNP mutation appears to have occurred several
hundred years prior to this date, there must be more recently acquired SNPs applicable
here, children SNPs of L1066 but for whatever reason they apparently were
not identified. So that gives us 3 sets of ancient remains testing positive
for the SNP L1066 that
I'm aware of, one in Longniddry East Lothian, Scotland, one in West Lothian,
Scotland and
one found on the island of Oland, Sweden. What this means is we had ancestors
walking around 1400 BC and around 100 AD in the Lothian region of Scotland,
and one on the island of Oland Sweden around 829 AD, during the Viking Age.
1/22/2022
I added additional informaton on the DNA Testing section of the
site, I added a paragraph giving my thoughts on why we are not seeing any
new YDNA matches. What I added
seems logical to me.
01/14/2022
No updates per se, just wanted to reiterate my gut feeling is that
our Curley family is descended from the Curley family of Normandy and that
we'll know this for certain should we get some YDNA matches tying us back to
Normandy or Scandinavia. The head scratching part however is why aren't
there any records of this family making the move over to Ireland. The Curley
crest/coat of arms is found in Irish records, and it is connected to the
Norman de Curly/Curley family, but I've seen nothing that documents this
family being present in Ireland. I certainly think it is possible a
representative came over to Ireland with the Strongbow Invasion, but I'm not
finding any confirmation of that. Regardless, this is what I suspect and
that's what I'm sticking with at this present time. If all of this is true,
there would be direct connections to Rollo and the settling of Normandy by
the vikings since genealogy shows the de Tilley and de Glanville families
having descended from Vikings and I believe they may be documented as
sharing the same ancestor, I'll have to spend some additional time
researching that. Individually when I traced back these families I ended up
with the same shared ancestor. I'll have to double check that.
5/09/2021
Very interesting find, while searching online for the Curley name
and possible connections to Normandy, I located a document that not only
contains a reference to a Curley lineage but that same document includes two
other males with different surnames that match our lineage, as verified by
YDNA testing. In this document is found a Roberto de Curleio (Curley), a
Henrico de Tilleio (Tilley) and a Ranulfo de Grandivalle (Glenville). This
could be a very big discovery, we have three surnames connected through YDNA
testing, all found together at the same time and place on an official
document. The document can be found
here and the names are found at [1174, 20 Jan.] (MS.lat.,fo.14). The
YDNA testing shows the common male ancestor shared by these men would be
from 750 ot 1100 AD (+/- 200 years). If our Curley ancestor was actually
related to this same Curleio family in Normandy and later found in Britain,
that would appear to cast doubt on any ancient connection to the Mac
Thoirdealbhaigh surname. In other words, the family would have already been
named Curly/Curley at least as far back as approximately 1100 AD. This
appears to be the strongest lead found to date so it's something to keep our
eyes on.
12/19/2020
In light of the recently found information on the L1066 Viking in
Oland, Sweden, and the fact that our L1066 branch shares an ancient
connection with the Osborne of Kent lineage, I took another look at all the
surnames associated with our L1066 lineage and I am seeing a definite
pattern emerging. Many of the names have several possible points of origins,
where one origin could be Irish, but another could be "Norman". I am
starting to wonder if possibly our Curley lineage arrived in Ireland
directly as a Viking and some of the other matches we have are Vikings that
went to Normandy and then onward to the British Isles during the 1066 AD
invasion. There are just too many coincidences here to ignore and some of
the Irish surnames could actually not be Irish at all. For example, our Mc
Mahon matches might be from Mohun, the de Mohun family of Normandy. Our Ryan
matches could come from Royan, from Rouen in Normandy. While I think it's
possible our Curley lineage could be from a Viking directly from
Scandinavia, it's also possible it could represent the de Curly family from
Normandy. I could be off base here but I'm seeing information connecting
several of the surnames to the same area in Normandy, which of course was
founded by the Vikings in the year 911 AD. Of course, there might also be
more to the information I found stating there was a Kerley family that came
to Ireland from Denmark, around 1100 AD. It's going to take new DNA matches
to solve this puzzle, or more ancient remains discoveries to solve this
puzzle, right now these are just suppositions, we cannot draw any
conclusions.
12/12/2020
Very interesting update here, just stumbled across a website that publishes
information on ancient remains and the testing done on those remains and it
turns out, Viking remains were found and tested postive for our ancient
L1066 SNP, a mutation that occurred over 3500+ years ago. While this
connection is well before the Viking age even began, it does demonstrate
that it is possible other groups under L1066 could also have Vikings among
them. It appears the remains were dated to approximately 829 AD, right at
the Viking age. I've actually been waiting and expecting to see this for some time, I
just wasn't aware of a site where someone was maintaining the results for
ancients remains that have been dna tested. Again this doesn't prove much,
it just lends a bit more credence to a possible Viking origin for our Curley
group in Ireland, or a Norman of Viking descent.
12/02/2020
Continuing to add matches to our group, once again another central
Irish surname with a long history in the area. Every new match is a
completed puzzle piece, little by little we'll eventually solve the puzzle.
As was originally suspected, the primary focus for the lineage going back
many hundreds of years, possibly much farther back, is focused in the Irish
midlands with some very common Irish surnames. Based upon the number of
people with matching surnames, the older surnames in our lineage appear to
be Curley, Ryan, Burke and Tully/Flood. The others appear to be either of
more recent acquisition or there just aren't enough matches with the same
surname to make any guess as to how old that family line might be, using
that surname. The Curley, Ryan, Burke and Tully/Flood lines appear to be
intact for at least several hundred years or more meaning they existed as
related but separate families going back to at least the 1600s. These are
just estimates, but that's what appears to be the case.
11/26/2020
The year 2020 has been extremely uneventful for our Curley family,
from a genealogical discovery standpoint. We're really looking to pick up
some YDNA matches that might shed some light on where our lineage was during
the time period of appoximately 800 - 1300 AD. It's safe to say the family
was in Ireland by the 1400s, in the midlands region and possibly further
west as well. DNA testing appears to show our Curley family using this name
or slightly different spelling of the name to this same time period. Curley
is an anglicized name and at this name we do not know what the original
Gaelic name was with a high degree of certainty. The information found
online and in texts cannot be verified however the most commonly suggested
name is Mac Thoirdealbhaigh, or a variation of this. This is roughly
translated as son of the one shaped like Thor, or in the shape of Thor.
Because of this it's possible the original Curley in Ireland was a viking,
it would make sense since the Curleys are found at the southern shore of
Lough Ree and there was a large viking fort on Lough Ree, ruled by a viking
chief named Turgesius or Thorgest. Of course the name Turgesius also is a
reference to Thor. One other interesting piece of information is that the
shared ancestor for the Curley group and all the other males that match the
Curley group but having different surnames (predominantly Irish surnames),
appears to be from the same time period the vikings were active in Ireland
on Lough Ree. With that said, there are still no new matches that can shed
any additional light on this puzzle.
5/24/2020
Talk about a slow start, like molasses in winter. Nothing new to
report although I was giving some thought to some of the matches we have
that may have an origin in the Lancashire England area. Interestingly, one
of these non-Curley matches may have an origin in a town called Chorley,
Lancashire. Chorley comes from the words ceorl-ley but ceorl is pronounced
as churl and not curl. There was a family in that town named de Chorley but
I can find nothing that would explain a connection between the de Chorley
family and the Irish Curley family, other than a dna match with a different
name possibly from that town. My original suspicion was that the match from
the Lancashire area was most likely from a somewhat recent Irish immigrant.
1/26/2020
As far as a a review of 2019, there is not much to report,
it was a fairly uneventful year for Curley DNA discoveries. We
did manage to pick up a few new matches to the overall group, of
various surnames so that is something positive. We'll see what 2020
brings.
2/21/2019
The "About Us" page has been updated with additonal biographical
information regarding the New Jersey Curley family.
Information on Autosomal DNA testing has been updated on
the "DNA Testing" page.
1/15/2019
Added a link to the links page for the Norman invasion of Ireland which lists
among the invasion forces one William Macarell. Could there be a
connection between the Macarell surname and this William Macarell and our
Curley lineage? No real evidence at this time other than the phonetic
similarity between the surname Macarell and some of the earliest spellings
for Curley, possibly being M'Kerryle and M'Kyrrell.
12/24/2018
There are no updates other than a couple more matches have
been found for surnames other than Curley, these of more recent English
origin. I've added some additional links to the Links page.
11/05/2017
It's been quiet on the YDNA testing front on new matches, we
haven't seen any in some time. This is unfortunate because additional
testing results will be needed to better understand the history of the
lineage and other connections that may exist to other surnames. One
possible lead that we'd really like to investigate further is the McKerrell
surname, as well as or possibly the same as the Scottish McKerlie/McKerley
surname. We're not aware of any results for either of these surnames
so hopefully we'll see some results in the days ahead, just to see if there
might be any connection or if they are completely unrelated paternally.
6/20/2017
The Family Tree DNA project Central Irish YCAII 22-23 has been
renamed to the British Isles YCAII 22-23 Project.
This was done because there are some matches to this genetic group they may
not have a direct connection to Ireland. The point of origin for this
related group (between 500 and 850 AD) is undetermined at this time.
6/04/2017
Additional testing results added to the YDNA Testing page.
Also a link has been added on the Links page for information regarding the
Votadini tribe. This "may" be the ancestral tribal group for this
L1066 Curley lineage.
5/12/2017
Ancient remains found at Longniddry Scotland tested positive for
the SNP L1066, an SNP matching our Curley lineage. The remains found
are estimated to be from 1500 - 1300 BCE. An ancient Briton to Ireland
migration appears to be the most logical hypothesis at this point but an
ancient Ireland back to Britain migration cannot be ruled out.
12/04/2016
Updates added to the YDNA Testing page, marker upgrade results have been
posted. We now have 3 Curleys tested out to 111 markers, 2 Curleys tested
out to 67 markers and 1 Curely tested out to 37 markers. Overall we
made very good progress in 2016 with finding more Curleys that have an
interest in their ancestry and doing the YDNA testing.
9/26/2016
The New Jersey lineage originally from Athlone Ireland has expanded
thanks to new testing results. The solidly confirms this lineage in
New Jersey since the early to mid 1800s and has linked multiple branches of
the family.
2/22/2016
Big update here, the L1066 branch of Clan Curley is no longer known
exclusively as the Athlone Curleys, we have now been confirmed in Couny
Mayo, Ireland. This is big news.
1/24/2016
Testing results received today appear to reaffirm the estimate that
the Athlone Curley group have been using some variation of the Curley
surname since at least the mid to late 1400s. This determination is
based upon the YDNA results of 3 Athlone Curley descendants and the very
large genetic distance displayed from among these 3. It's quite
possible the point of origin for this group could be pushed back even
further as more Curleys YDNA test but for now, we'll sit at a solid estimate
of the mid 1400s which also appears to coincide with the very first
instances of a variation of the Curley surname being recorded in Ireland.
11/29/2015
It's been a while since our last update but we have some big news
today, additional YDNA testing results have come in and these results
appear to have pushed back the common ancestor for the L1066 Curley group
even further, possibly back to the 1300s or even earlier. At this time
this does appear to be the elder Curley group in the Athlone/Galway area and
I would expect this lineage will also be found outside Athlone in other
areas of Ireland since it is so ancient but of course this could be our
ancestral homelands going back a very long time.
10/08/2015
I'm fairly confident that at some point here in the near future we
are going to get our first L1066 Curley matches outside of Athlone (other
than those we already know of that had an ancestor emigrate previously from
that area). Once we have matches outside Athlone, I am expecting the genetic
distance and age for this lineage to be pushed back even further. Currently
it does appear the L1066 Curley group is one of the oldest so far.
9/18/2015
We are going to be in an update lull here until there are more testing
results available, that pertain to either the main Athlone Curley group or
other surnames that match the central Irish Cluster grouping. The latest
test results received confirm the
L1066 Curley group now appears to be the oldest lineage and
that lineage is so far confined to the Athlone area (in addition to Athlone
Curleys that emigrated outside Ireland), as it pertains specifically to the
Curleys. We do have more distant relations outside of this area, where the
connection to a shared ancestor goes back to at least 750 AD.
9/04/2015
Added in a new link to the Links section, this shows the Big Tree and the
Athlone Curley group's position on that tree.
9/03/2015
Most likely we will be in a lull until the next significant YDNA result
comes in. I am not aware of anyone currently testing so it might be a while.
At this point the only way we will learn more about this ancient family will
be through more YDNA testing, and perhaps someone has information that has
been passed down through the family over many generations tht might prove
helpful. The YDNA testing will confirm or disprove a connection to this
specific lineage and it may help with estimating the length of time this
family has been using the Curley name. There are at least 4 unrelated Curley
lineages within a very small geographic area in Central Ireland. So far, our
Athlone based lineage appears to be the oldest. You may find conflicting
information on the internet regarding the different Curley families, the
ages, etc. however our recent test results are the most recent, and the most
accurate whereas quite a bit of information out there has since been
debunked. My primary goal is to keep this as current as possible and so far,
we are at the leading edge of that but only because of additional Curleys
expressing an interest and wanting to help.
Research Notes: Surnames
Possible Norman Origin - Many of our matching Irish surnames could possibly
have a Norman origin and Rouen Normandy and the surrounding area keeps
coming up when searching possible surname connections. It is quite possible
we have a Norman origin here or a Norman and Viking mix, with some families
coming directly from Scandinavia and other relations coming via Normandy
during the 1066 invasion of England.
There are too many coincidences here to ignore but as with
much of the current origin research there is nothing definite at this time.
Keep in mind the shared common ancestor for all these men thus far is from
the time period of about 750 to 1100 AD (+/- 200 years). This aligns
perfectly with either the Viking invasions of Ireland or the later Strongbow
Invasion of Ireland.
DNA matches with the following surnames
having both Irish and possible Norman origin-
Mc Mahon, Mahoney, Meehan (Irish) - de Mohun (Battle Abbey Roll) (Norman)
Strongbow Invasion of Ireland
Guiles (Unk) - de Gueilles, Guiles (Norman)
Ryan/Royan (Irish) - Rohan - Rouen (Norman)
Constant (Unk) - Constantinus, Custance de Cotentin (Norman)
Curley (Irish) - de Curly or Curly (Battle Abbey Roll)(Norman) Accompanied
William the Conqueror
Tilly/Flood/Tully (Irish) - de Tilly (Battle Abbey Roll) (Norman)
Tully/Tilly and Flood are connected from the Gaelic Tuile, which can
translate to Flood.
Glenville (Unk) - de Glanville - Ranulf de Glanville>Richard de Belfoi, Lord
Glanville>Roger de Saint-Sauveur, vicomte du Cotentin (now we have a
possible connection to the surname Constant
above, where the name Constant can come from de Cotentin...Link
from House of Names showing the various forms and history of Constant and
Contentin. Another piece of
"evidence", there was one Walter Coutances (de Constantiis), who was the
Archbishop of Rouen Normandy, now we have a connection to the Ryan/Royan -
Rouen above.
Curley
Viking origin - Turgesius, major encampment on Lough Ree, near Athlone (Our
Curley lineage is Athlone based)
Malahuc Eysteinsson?? Up through the Glanville line
Rollo - Normandy Up through the Glanville line and also possible connection
through Turgesius
King Harald Fairhair Up through the Glanville line and also possible
connection through Turgesius
Curley Crest - Dragon head with flames from mouth over crown